The Big "pay off"

Some of you may recall a comment recently made by Imran in which he asks:

What do you think about the Catholic bishop/philosopher who proudly declared himself a hedonist, because the spiritual life is the most pleasurable? (Even if it has its challenges, it is a life to be preferred, and will certainly "pay off" when you attain the beatific vision.)

It is a valid question and one which has in different forms constantly plagued my discussions with my "beloved Atheist"

I have given a good deal of thought to the expression of the bishop that Imran mentions (no idea who he the bishop is), but I can certainly understand the perspective. For many Christians there is no need even to struggle toward any sort of beautific vision, rather Jesus is here and now making their lives WONDERFUL! For them, Christianity is perhaps a sort of hedonism.

Neither perspective (hedonism realized now or in the future) seems to mesh well with the Christianity I am given. Repentence and struggle, repentence and struggle seems to be the name of the game. Think about all the times that someone approaches Jesus expecting to be sold something - He doesn't dress it up and make it pretty for them, he doesn't change the message to make it more attractive and very often we see people walking away from Him, unable to bear the cross He tries to lay on their shoulders.

There are times when I wonder if I am able to bear the cross, and even more times when I wonder: "Now where did I leave that cross at?"

I do not deny that the struggle is all for a return to normalcy which some like to imagine as a sort of eternal ecstacy. But, paradoxically, a return to normalcy insists upon a complete denial of self, and folks that ain't all that fun, even when it is particpated in at the puny level that I am presently playing.

Comments

Jared said…
This issue has been perplexing me for a long time, and possibly for the rest of my life. St. Theophan talks about this issue extensively in "The Spiritual Life and How to Be Attuned To It". A very good resource on this topic.

Bodily pleasure vs. spiritual pleasure. The fallen "nature" of our animalistic soul is to serve the body and make it as comfortable as possible. The spirit breathed into us by God, wants to serve and please God. This is the dilemma; the struggle. Pleasing the body takes us away from the things of God: fear of God, yearning for God, virtuous living and conscience.

Spiritual pleasure, the little I have experienced, seems to take a long time to cultivate and is very satisfying. Bodily pleasure is immediate and is dissatisfying. Because of my lack of patience and pride, I almost always choose the easier path. I was created for God and given the freedom to choose Him or not and partake of the "living water", or chose water that never quenches my thirst.

I am so inclined to the latter, that I don't know if I ever will obtain the spiritual mindset.

The struggle continues.
Anonymous said…
i'm not sure if the two are ALWAYS mutually exclusive. it seems to me that the body and its desires can be a beautiful, wonderful, and even sacramental expression.
why else song of songs? why else periods where we are forbidden to fast? why else the greater-than-erotic joy that so many monastics speak of? why else the teaching that the *joy* of the Lord is our strength? and so on... i think the issue, however, is one of slavery VS sacrament. doing all things in the name of Christ VS for merely the dead end of merely our own pleasure. so many of the joys that are spoken of in scripture and even by monsatics, are rarely if ever individual... but so often between persons and communities.

this is no way contradicts repentance and struggle. but repentance and struggle are not means in and of themselves... the love of God and acquisition of the Holy Spirit are the ends... the goal... the glory, and yes... the joy. physical and spiritual, as God wills.
fdj said…
Well, God forbid I should come off as a hellfire-making dents on the rock with my knees-joyless-ascetic.

:)

However, suffice to say my imbalance is always in the other direction - never failing to recognize, relish, and serve ease, pleasure, and joy.

Ever looking for balance.
Jared said…
I guess that is where I am finding the confusion to be: where do I draw the line? "Everything in moderation", right? So often the pleasures I pursue lead me to selfishness, pride, sloth...etc, even when done in moderation. Living 30 years with the mindset that I have a right to enjoy those things that are pleasurable have left me in a hard-hearted place.

I'm not able to tell that those pleasures I do pursue are harmful or good for me in the moment. I'm not sure I know where to draw the line. To trully "feast", as we approach the Dormition, or revel in selfishness.

Maybe celebration in community is the key. St. Chrysostom advises that when you are to have a party, you should invite the clergy to keep things "under control". I also know the key(s)is participating in the Church. I am so glad that I have a Spiritual Father I can talk to about these things and hold me accountable. I am not left to decide these things for myself.

I do know that if I begin to reject all pleasures and adopt some form of Arianism, I have gone too far. God IS "everywhere present and fillest all things". Beauty is everywhere, as Schmemann has said.
Anonymous said…
interesting to watch the opening olypmic ceremonies in greece, in connection to this thread...
the ceremonies included a parade of various greek histories/influences/inventions/achievements, etc... included in the parade was a small parade float representing the greek orthodox church... however floating above the entire procession, appearing to give blessing to the entire parade (including the church), was the greek god - eros.
Anonymous said…
Equally interesting was that the commentators had some knowledge and commentary to share about all the other floats EXCEPT the one showing the history of the Byzantine Church and Greek Church.
fdj said…
Am I entirely selfless...sure I am, can't you tell!

What is heaven? Do virgins await me there? I am not sure the context is phrased properly Imran. For me the notion of "going to heaven" is laden with so much mistaken symbolic baggage that I hesitate to use it.

Why endure what we must endure? Well, one analogy might be because we have come to believe that doing so will bring healing. Healing from a disease that we have come to believe truly exists, which as you know the rest of the world denies or perhaps relishes in. Like obeying the orders of your doctor - very very hard sometimes.

So I suppose one could argue that HEALTH is the payoff. But frankly I am not led to believe nor do I hear sermons extolling the ecstacy that awaits those who are "healed" (aka saved) - it simply isn't the emphasis because of that paradox in that healing is something that brings us away from ourselves and unites us in perfect community. Is there ecstacy in that? We are no explicitly told.

But to pursue heaven for heaven's sake is to perpetually circle the mountain and never ascend it.
What place do we have for a completley selfless endeavor? Is there such a thing? Is such a thing lauded in the Christian Tradition?

Is it not a virtue to do something simply because it is the right thing to do regardless of what it may cost us and without weighing the potential benefits?

I pray this is what my personal Christianity is, but as you well point out in what I assume was your rhetorical question - I am far from being selfless.
fdj said…
Another thought occurred to me...the illness from which we require healing is in no small way hedonism itself.
fdj said…
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me."I do not know how to reconcile this (amongst many other examples in the NT) with hedonism...even the subconscious sort of hedonism that I have often debated with my "beloved atheist" and that you make mention of here.

I am at a loss, Imran...hedonism bleeds beauty from everything: our families, our spouses, our spiritual borthers and sisters, and even our religion. I am reminded of that frightening anoalogy of the last judgement in which Jesus tells those who puport to have worker miracles in his name: "I never knew you."

Love, is - and MUST be - the polar opposite of hedonism. Hedonism always leads you inward, never outward.

I admit it is paradoxical and as I have argued with my "BA" before, ultimately I cannot prove that my (or anyone's) motivations are truly selfless...but then even the scriptures affirm the overarching decietfulness of one's own heart.
fdj said…
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me."I do not know how to reconcile this (amongst many other examples in the NT) with hedonism...even the subconscious sort of hedonism that I have often debated with my "beloved atheist" and that you make mention of here.

I am at a loss, Imran...hedonism bleeds beauty from everything: our families, our spouses, our spiritual borthers and sisters, and even our religion. I am reminded of that frightening anoalogy of the last judgement in which Jesus tells those who puport to have worker miracles in his name: "I never knew you."

Love, is - and MUST be - the polar opposite of hedonism. Hedonism always leads you inward, never outward.

I admit it is paradoxical and as I have argued with my "BA" before, ultimately I cannot prove that my (or anyone's) motivations are truly selfless...but then even the scriptures affirm the overarching decietfulness of one's own heart.
fdj said…
Imran...

Hedonism, as an -ism, will never allow your relationship with your wife to extend beyond I thought she looked nice and I wanted to copulate with her And so while it may have lead to marriage...you must have transcended hedonism in order to really relate to another person on a level beyond pleasing yourself.

What is it that Hedonism (as an -ism) teached you in regards to married life (as opposed to the other way around)? What wisdom does hedonism offer during those dark times when family life is virtually unbearable and it seems everything within cries out for you to escape?

Or what in hedonism leads you to refrain when a new woman comes along who you think looks nicer and that you would like to copulate with more than your wife.

Or, what on earth (as a hedonist) would lead anyone to ever give to those in need.

I want more money. What I do to achieve this hedonistic desire is I work my rear offLet me give you a hypothetical situation in regards to this statement: So, if you were offered a job by the nation of Israel to assist them in scamming Palestinians out of much deserved insurance money (i know...absurd situation...but bear with me), and they offered you an insane amount of money to do it, would you? Knowing that further suffering would be heaped upon these people? I think a hedonist (in the truest sense) would take the job without hesitation!

Maybe we need to define out terms:

The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.What I mean by hedonism is that it will always seek to avoid pain and I do not think it is possible to truly relate with a person or a family or even yourself until you are able and willing to embrace pain and not avoid it.

Putting all hope of a "pay-off" aside, there are times when we just simply deny ourselves and our needs and help someone else...even to the point of causing ourselves harm in some way.

As far as what Rumi says, forgive my ignorance: I don't get it.
fdj said…
I can't believe I wrote "teached"!!!

It's the muscle-relaxers I'm taking, really!
fdj said…
I suspect in my mind I may be thinking of the "cruder" variety of hedonism, whereas you are likely advocating the Epicurian.

But I find myself pitifully armed to argue the finer philosophical points.

Will you not explain the Rumi quote to me?

And what of the things I wrote concerning family?
fdj said…
I think the "hedonism" you are attacking is a straw man. It simply does not exist. No my friend, it does exist. I've seen it in my daily life. I do not attack it enough.

If pleasure seeking is the ultimate evil, then is pain seeking the ultimate good? Is God a sadist?Pleasure seeking is not the ultimate evil, but believing or acting like that pleasure seeking is the ultimate good is.

"I will trade you all of my prayers for your one sigh."That is truly beautiful.

Loving my wife and kids brings me great pleasure...Would you not agree?Of course...but do I love them for my sake or theirs? Perhaps it doesn't matter, but I like to think it does and that if ever I should "change" and find that it no longer "brings me great pleasure" (as many a divorced husband/father may tell you) that I will love them none-the-less. In other words, that I would choose to question the change and not the lack of pleasure.

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