An unworthy Deacon, named for the brother of God: James, striving to "work out his salvation with fear and trembling" within the Tradition (paradosis) of the Eastern Orthodox Faith. It is a strange and marvelous journey, and I am accompanied by the fourfold fruit of my fecundity. My wife, the Matushka or Diaconissa Sophia, is my beloved partner in the pursuit of Theosis, and she ranks me in every way.
I love how the bishops say "We cannot accept what would be injurious to this Church and could well lead to its permanent division." As if the election of a gay bishop DIDN'T do this? It's silly...the liberals are driving this agenda and any complaints from traditionalists are viewed as divisive even while they go on pontificating and forcing their watered down gospel shamelessly saying, "If that means that others reject us and communion with us, as some have already done, we must with great regret and sorrow accept their decision."
Yeah sure. Regret and sorrow that ignorant traditionalists cannot see the light.
Now...check this little blurb out: "The small yet affluent Episcopal Church, with 2.3 million members, covers a significant chunk of the Anglican Communion's budget."
Aha...so THIS is the motivation for them to reconcile with the ECUSA? I could be wrong, but I am willing to bet that most African Bishops (Tutu excluded, who I suppose ought to move to ECUSA) don't give a rat's sphincter for American dollars as compared to Anglican orthodoxy (as they understand it). We'll see...but thinking of that controversial image at the last Lambeth while I was apart of the ECUSA when an African Bishop was trying to cast the demon out of a gay clergyman he was arguing with speaks volumes.
I suppose it's the train wreck phenomena here, but I can't help but watch. Let's keep the doors open...
You miss the really interesting issue here. In places where there is religious freedom is there any force to keep the Church unified?
Clearly, the with respect to Protestant denominations that is not so. I have heard various Orthodox congratulating themselves that they are not like them. However, we have a split heirarchy with various foreign rulers. Isn't this just the same problem only in a more primitive form? There are already starting to be differences in practice between the various dioceses.
No, I didn't mean I went to Lambeth. I fixed the syntax error.
Rick...actually I encourage further division and schism in Protestant circles...it is altogether appropriate. The Anglicans should certain excommunicate the heretics in the ECUSA (TEC? What's the diff?).
As silly as the Orthodox jurisdictional logjam is, it is neither sacramental nor doctrinal disunity. ECUSA's been a joke since the 1960's, when it failed to discipline Bishop Pike for rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity. Orthodoxy is not like ECUSA (or the Anglican "Communion") at all. For all its problems, I'd rather have Orthodoxy's "errors" than Anglicanism's truth any day.
Actually, my point was missed entirely. Orthodox triumphalism aside, the same forces that cause the splits in the Protestants are at work on the Orthodox. Further, the weird divisions by ethnicity in the Church add to these forces.
On the other hand, maybe we should just stick to that "I thank God, I am not like them." thing as it worked so well for the Pharisee.
However, though I skirt the cliffs leading to hell, yes thank God I am no longer a part of a group where I have to explain to my daughter that despite what her bishop says and does SHE ought not to live with her boyfriend.
Rick, you're point was not missed. It was disagreed with. The forces at work in ECUSA and Orthodoxy are NOT the same. NOT. NOT. NOT. It disturbs me quite a bit that you think they are the same. Good grief.
And regarding Rick's drive-by charge of triumphalism: If it's triumphalism to believe the Nicene Creed, then may I be a triumphalist, and may I NEVER RECOVER.
However, on a more individualistic note, (since radical individualism is apparently all that Americans understand), let me just say that in terms of Holy Orthdoxy's view of herself, it has never been enough to merely be a chrismated member of an Orthodox parish. The Church is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, but individual members (us, that is), must strive all their lives to become and remain living members of her. Perhaps it is our tendency to forget this that Rick refers to with his offhand remark about triumphalism. Let's hope so; otherwise, such talk just lands us back in the dead end of denominationalism.
Patrick has it right about Episcopalians. It's a queer church. That must be understood correctly: deviant, abnormal. *Some* of them are gay, but it is a fundamentally queer organization. It gets queer-er with time, as more normal people leave. It just gets concentrated. You may notice that it doesn't stay still, it gets more flamboyant, more bizarre. The 6-inch heels aren't enough, they have to be 9-inch now....It isn't enough to condone shacked-up couples, it has to be same-sex marriages. The future will bring things you can't imagine now, in precisely the way that the Episcopalians of today couldn't have been imagined in 1976. The Orthodox are a different religion. Christianity. -- Bob K.