Very specifically for a dear friend


AND, since there were no less than SIXTY-SEVEN of them, I reckon we ought not to feel overly dumb.

Comments

Munkee said…
i don't get it.
fdj said…
Well the t-shirt? TSK TSK if so! It means the civil war wasn't necessarily about racism and slavery. For many...perhaps most...it was about states rights.

And the link? A recurring joke throughout our 4th of July BBQ that posited that one could not claim knowledge of much of anything if they were unable to name all the Union generals involved in Gettysburg.
Munkee said…
Is it safe to say though, that the civil war served to highlight a severe problem of racism in the South, and therefore, one waving such a flag, is waving a symbol deeply related to the issue highlighted by the conflict which resulted when the South would not give up its slave population? Further, has the old flag been kept around to declare up through the Jim Crow Era, that "we will treat people any way we please, it's a right you cannot take from us." I have known several folks on a personal base who wore it or bore it from just such a conviction.

I for one want no association with it for the above stated reasons. You certainly won't find me dawning swastika t-shirts or arm bands and proclaiming it is the 8 fold path that makes them meaningful to me.
fdj said…
Racism was common in both the north and south in the 19th century. Remember the New York City draft riots (and others as well)? Who was targeted - often with brutality that easily matched lynching? Blacks.

The vast majority of those who fought for the south did not own slaves and never expected to. When asked why they fight and I don't think you can find a single example of the reply being to retain racism or slavery.

There is a profound political question for which reason this war was fought...yes, sadly, the divide between slave states and free was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, but really it was the north - specifically Lincoln who very wisely made the issue solely about slavery - while most southerners argued they were fighting a war which was to preserve states rights which they believed trumped federal authority.

Sooo, while I am not willing to wear a confederate battle standard, I might go for the political confederate flag which most of the politically correct crowd would not likely recognize as such.

See:
http://richmondthenandnow.com/Images/Articles/Raising-The-Flag.jpg

You'll note that German soldiers are still awarded and their equipment still decorated with the iron cross with little or no flak that I know of. Furthermore, the KKK makes extensive use of the US Flag and yet I fly one in my front yard. Perception is key and I would argue we have perhaps become overly sensitized. Also you know the whole "Victor gets to write the history?" thing...if indeed its true. But surely it is easier to rationalize the horrors of the Civil War if we see it as a grand effort to free people from bondage.

But what do we do for those who see the confederate flag as a symbol of their southern heritage...whose family died fighting for the south - not for retention of slaves, but freedom from the federal tyranny as they saw it. Those, who perhaps actually believe the south had every right to secede from the Union? Or at the very least would argue now that we definitely want to see more states rights and less federal overlording.

I would not have anything to do with a swastika because I see no redeeming value in the Nazi party. States rights, though? Well...I at least lend a sympathetic ear and maybe even a voice.

And keep in mind, the battle flag has not always garnered such ill favors. Even in our lifetime Aaron...consider that Johnny Cash/Muppet video I posted? Or, surely you watched at least one episode of "The Dukes of Hazard"? A wildly successful show that had a car named Robert E Lee and was richly decorated with the confederate battle flag. And what of all those old songs..."Dixie" and "Bonney Blue Flag" surely one can sing them and NOT be a racist or offend an African American.

Here:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~txnavarr/markers/last_review_of_the_confederacy/edgerton.jpg

You know me, I'm adamant that we live in a society that is far far too easily offended. But, that right to be offended and paid attention to is reserved only for certain groups.
fdj said…
Check this article out:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2967.html

It pretty much shows, I think, that the war became about slavery well into it and only after Lincoln saw it as being necessary. Lincoln adamantly promised he had no intention of freeing the slaves up until the time he did.
Munkee said…
James,

I am aware of the slave issue be given prominence later on. My comment was not referring to the civil war's root causes, I referred to it because it "highlighted" the slavery issue. Further, I mentioned the Jim Crow era as way the flag has been waved in support of the South's right to do what it wants to whomever it wants. The flag is now wrapped up and embroiled in all of that, long before "them Dukes" had it. The flag's "true meaning" is lost or too far inbred with ulterior association.
fdj said…
Hence the need for a history lesson for all those who are offended by it.

I can STILL recall the shocking moment when I learned that the civil war was about much much more than the North trying to free black men and the Southerners were racists fighting to keep them enslaved.

Again, I think we have grown far too sensitive as a people...at least toward certain topics. I have read of people who would rather burn than fly a US flag at their house because they believe it is overly associated with American imperialism...blah blah blah. How sad...but perceptions, truth be darned, drive the conversation - especially when PC sensitivities rule the day.
Munkee said…
I guess that I don't find that it's a perception worth fighting for. Again, you will be lumped together with all who do fly the flag for the aforementioned reasons of racial pride and bigotry. Why as a Christian would you want to waste your time scrapping for such notions just to retain some sense of southern pride and states rights? You aren't even from the south, so you're more or less just a fan of the south. Why not just where a Kentucky flag or some libertarian symbol? Further, to my point, the perception folks have of the flag's meaning is not just wrapped up in historical ignorance, its perception is warranted by the meaning the flyers of this flag have poured into it. Every one of the folks I've known who have had the flag on their pickup truck, tatooed it on their arm, or worn a t-shirt with one, have all told me of their motivation being at least partially a white pride factor.

I guess this is just something you are committed to and i'll have to say that most pathetic cliche, we have to agree to disagree on this.
fdj said…
Well don't read too much into this whole affair Aaron, I am not planning to display in any fashion the confederate battle flag.

However, being a bit of an history dork, I find ANY historic mis- perception (such as the Confederacy necessarily stands for racism) worth noting and if possible, correcting. Heck even those folks you know who displayed the flag for racist reasons need the very same history lesson as the NAACP...ironic isn't it?
fdj said…
Oh and BTW...

My genes take me to a long history in Eastern Kentucky and Virginia...and while I never had residence there, I did spend a good deal of time growing up there.
Munkee said…
I would note the obvious, you are displaying the flag on your personal blog on the www.

This dialogue has been appreciated.
fdj said…
BUT WAIT! Before you buy, there's more:
http://paradosis.blogspot.com/2007/06/went-to-war-on-july-21st-1861-civilians.html

No less than three previous displays of the confederate flag...clearly evidence that I am a racist.

Maybe I should get a white cassock and hood?
Anonymous said…
Tru dat!

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